Taking Away Support Doesn't Create Independence: A Conversation with Hannah McDonald

What if the goal isn't getting your child to do everything independently as quickly as possible?

In this episode of Educating the Uniquely Wired Child, I sit down with author Hannah McDonald to discuss executive functioning, motivation, routines, and the systems that help neurodivergent children thrive.

One of Hannah's most powerful insights is this:

"Taking away support doesn't create independence."

Together, we explore why many uniquely wired children struggle not because they lack knowledge, but because they need systems that make that knowledge usable.

In This Episode We Discuss:

• Why executive functioning is about more than knowing what to do
• The difference between knowledge and execution
• Why motivation is often overrated
• How routines and systems reduce cognitive load
• The role of environmental supports in daily success
• Why independence grows through scaffolding, not by removing support
• Practical strategies parents can use at home

Resources Mentioned

Hannah McDonald's book: https://www.archwaypublishing.com/en/bookstore/bookdetails/861499-the-important-shit-book

Connect with Uniquely Wired Child

Website and Resources: https://linktr.ee/uniquely.wired.child

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Subscribe so you never miss an episode focused on helping uniquely wired children (and the adults who support them) build systems that actually work.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Educating the Uniquely Wired Child, the podcast where we explore the strengths, challenges, and stories of uniquely wired children and the adults who support them. I'm your host, Dr. Kristen Schempe, and today's guest is Hannah McDonald, author of The Important Shit Book, A Neurodivergent Guide to Navigating Adulthood. Hanna originally wrote this book for her son, but as you'll hear throughout our conversation, she was also writing from her own lived experience as a neurodivergent adult. The result is a practical, honest guide to all the things adulthood quietly expects us to know, from organizing, time management to work, relationships, home maintenance, travel, and everything in between. One of the themes that stood out to me while reading the book is the gap between what we're expected to know and what we are actually taught. And for many neurodivergent individuals, that gap can feel especially wide. So today we're going to talk about executive function, independence, spoon theory, life skills, and what it really means to support young people as they learn how to navigate adulthood on their own terms. So let's dive into it. Okay, Hannah, you wrote this book for your son, but you were also writing it for yourself. So how did your own neurodivergence say what we did to the book?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, first of all, thank you for having me on today. I love what you are doing for the neurodiverse community. We definitely need more of it. And that's a really insightful question because honestly, I think I was writing the book for both of us. I wrote the book because I saw my son approaching adulthood and realized how many skills he was simply expected to figure out on his own. But as I was writing, I also found myself reflecting on my own past experiences and all the things I learned the hard way. I think most parents want their kids to have an easier life than they had. And, you know, when my son was younger, we had a lot to overcome. He had a lot of issues growing up. We were literally in survival mode every single day. I didn't have time to explain adulty type things to him, and he certainly wasn't ready to hear them. When he turned 16 and got his driver's license, he was finally ready to start hearing about adult life skills. And I felt like I was way behind in teaching. You know, I felt like I was kind of failing him in a way, not preparing him for the life ahead of him in just a few short years. And so we started teaching him things that I had learned at a much younger age, like how to save money and clean my room, and things I learned a little later, like how to do my laundry or schedule a doctor's appointment. One of the biggest ways my neurodivergence shaped the book was that I wanted to learn, you know, wanted others to learn what has taken me 25 years to learn. I spent a lot of years thinking I needed to be more organized or more disciplined, or just try harder. And that isn't always the answer. What helped me wasn't really becoming a different person. It was building better systems for myself. You know, using the calendar of my phone, putting sticky notes on the mirror, making checklists, creating routines, automating my bills, you know, breaking tasks into smaller steps. That was a big one for me. Those are the kinds of strategies that show up throughout the book because they're the strategies that actually work for me in real life. For example, if I'm cooking dinner one night, earlier in the day, I will often lay out all the pots and pans and spatulas and spices and anything else, any other dry ingredients that I can and have that already ready as step one of the cooking process. So later that night, when it's time to actually cook dinner, it feels less overwhelming because part of it is already done. It makes it a lot less overwhelming when I start cooking. Interesting. Yeah, I wanted the book to be practical, you know, neurodivergent people are given vague advice like be more responsible or get organized, but nobody explains exactly how to do that. So I tried to write the book that I wish someone would have handed me years ago.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Right. And your and your point about feeling like you're you were behind because of your son's challenges, you felt like you were in survival mode. So just kind of making sure that you're you know getting through fifth grade, for example, or you're gonna, and so you that you're focusing on those just making it day to day instead of having the benefit of being able to think about what what does this look like long term? So I I I want I want other parents to hear that and and not feel not feel that guilt because there's a lot that goes into just getting through that those, you know, those day-to-day moments.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, and they there can be some very difficult years. And you know, I felt so guilty for so many of those years. Like I wasn't doing my son a proper service, you know, I wasn't preparing him for life on his own. And that was I was really hard on myself about that. And I hope other parents hear that and give themselves some grace. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Because if your son is, if he wasn't ready, even if you had tried to to make it happen, it probably wouldn't have gone, it probably would not have gone very well.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, no, it wouldn't. He he wouldn't have been receptive to listening. Like I said, when he turned 16, he got a car. We opened up a savings account for him so he could have a debit card to get gas. And while we were at the bank, he started asking the bank guy, you know, what is the difference between a checking and a savings account and what's this money market and what's a certificate of deposit? You know, these are all things he didn't know. And I had already kind of started the book, and I was like, well, let's write those things in the book. Because, you know, he he had no idea, and we don't realize how little someone knows, and I think it's a good idea to just cover all your bases.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Right. Well, and I've never been a fan of the whole empty nest parent concept. I prefer calling myself a bird launcher instead of saying that I'm an empty nest parent. But you describe adulthood as being pushed out of the nest before you've learned to fly. And other species do not do that. But what do you think society assumes that people should already know that nobody actually teaches?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yes, I I definitely put a part in the book about baby birds. I was watching a David Attenborough nature special one day, and there was this scene where these birds were, they were cliff-dwelling birds, and they would just kind of scoot their babies out of the nest and just let them freefall all the way down to the beach below. And, you know, some of them flew off beautifully, and others kind of hit their heads on the way down. And, you know, I likened myself to those ones that had a little bit of a difficult time. And in that moment, I was like, I don't want my son that or any other young adult for that matter to have that same experience. You know, I think society assumes that people automatically know how to manage all the practical parts of adulthood simply because they turned 18.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, and there's nothing magical about that number. Right. There it's not like there's a switch or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah. Just because you got a diploma doesn't mean that you're suddenly ready to make a budget or build credit or file taxes or understand insurance and you know, don't forget to eat healthy and exercise. You know, being an adult is very overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

You know, I wasn't prepared for any of that. I didn't even know what a credit score was or that I needed to pay my taxes or how or when. Nobody ever taught me those things.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Well, one thing I've noticed throughout the book is that you focus on adapting systems rather than changing people. And I'm assuming that that was intentional. I mean, I think that's what your messaging is. Oh, yes, it was very intentional.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

One of the themes that run certain people send years trying to force themselves into systems that were never designed for the way their brains work. When those systems fail, they often blame themselves. You know, like they didn't do something right and they feel guilt and shame. And I wanted to flip that idea around and instead of asking what's wrong with this person, I wanted people to ask, what's wrong with this system? And you know, like if somebody consistently forgets appointments, maybe the solution isn't, you know, try harder to remember. Maybe it's put a reminder with an alert sound in their phone. If bills are always late, maybe the solution is putting all bills on auto pay. If cleaning feels overwhelming, maybe break it into smaller tasks. Like I break, you know, cooking a meal into a smaller task. You know, we make accommodations for physical challenges all the time. We use glasses and GPS and alarm clocks, but for some reason, when it comes to executive function, people are just expected to do everything with sheer willpower and it doesn't work. You know, the reality is that successful people aren't the ones that remember everything and never struggle, they're the people that have built those support systems.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Right. And in my last episode with Holden Thorpe, he talked about the workplace and neurodivergence. And he said that if you create an environment that works for neurodivergence, then it's going to work for for everyone. So instead of so it's the opposite of what what you said, right? Instead of trying to force someone to fit into a system, uh, creating a system that works for everyone is a is a much better, a much better way of going at it. And I think you know, we're missing out on a lot of really good leaders and managers when when we're selecting people based on certain characteristics that that sure really don't have anything to do with being a good leader or being a good manager. It's just what has historically been thought of as, you know, what kinds of traits and characteristics, you know, those pe those people have. And if you don't, then then you're not. So you mentioned the spoon theory in your book, and I've talked about the spoon theory in another episode. So but some parent, some parents are still learning about the spoon theory. So can you give us just a brief definition and how understanding energy can change the way that we approach everyday expectations?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Oh, yeah. I use the spoons theory with my husband and my son all the time. You know, if I've had a busy day, I've had to work and had a lot going on, and then, you know, they want to go out to dinner, I'll I'll look at them and just be like, guys, I just don't have the spoons for that tonight. You guys go out and enjoy, bring me something back. I just don't have it in me tonight. So for those that may not be familiar with the spoon theory, let's say in any given day you start with 12 spoons, and each spoon is a unit of measurement of energy. And each task that you do takes away a few of those spoons. So for instance, going to the grocery store might take three spoons, cooking a meal might take two, going to work or school might take four. And so you can see how those add up very quickly and take away from your 12. And, you know, some days you may have a spoon or two left over, and that's great. Go out and do something, or you know, go do something you enjoy. Other days you may have zero spoons left. And at that point, that's when you need to stop and rest and take care of yourself. Because if you are chronically pushing yourself day after day after day, after you've lost all your spoons, you're gonna go into a state of burnout, and it's very hard to recover from that. I have been in that, and I don't want anybody ever to be in that position. But the spoon theory helps explain something that a lot of neurodivergent people have been experiencing their entire lives that, you know, energy isn't an unlimited resource. You know, a neurotypical person might look at a list of tasks, like five simple tasks, and be like, oh, that's easy peasy done. Whereas a neurodivergent person might look at that same list and see things that require planning and transitions and decision making and focus, and it's a lot harder to do those five things. I think it's important to understand the spoon theory kind of shifts the question from why aren't they doing this to how much energy is this actually costing them? And how much energy or how many spoons have they already used up today? And I think once parents understand that, they can become focused on prioritizing the most important things, building in recovery, building in some quiet time or some rest time and creating supports for their child instead of assuming that every task requires the same amount of effort for every person because it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Right. And to add to that, you know, one one of the things that I have tried really hard to get parents to understand is that an activity might cost three spoons one day, but another day it might be six spoons. So even though it's it's the same activity going into it, it might, depending on whatever's going on that day, sure, might might be more or less spoons. Absolutely.

unknown 15:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

So it's you have to take it day by day. Absolutely. And I think that an activity that I've done with students before, um, and I did it with coins and not spoons because it was just easier to manage, but I think visually seeing the the the spoons or the coins or whatever the token is, seeing them go away is is that sort of a cue or signal that I I need to to practice some self-care. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Absolutely. And sometimes we we feel selfish for taking that the time to do self-care. You know, we feel like we ought to be up being productive when we really need to put our own mask on first and take care of ourselves. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So how did you decide what counted as important shit? And and like, and why did you make it important shit?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Honestly, my definition of important shit was pretty simple. You know, if a young adult is expected to know it and nobody's teaching it, it belonged in this book. The name of the book actually came from a binder that I created, which I talk about in the book. I call it the Important Shit Binder. And that was made before the book was ever a thought in my mind. I got frustrated trying to find important paperwork, my birth certificates, you know, marriage license, uh, insurance paperwork, passport, social security cards. I got so frustrated of digging through these messy file folders to find those pieces of paper that I finally pulled them all out one day and created a central binder to keep them all in with tabs and, you know, in a very organized fashion. And I called it my important shit binder. And so when it was time to name the book, I was like, oh, well, this is the important shit book because it teaches all of the important shit you need to know to adult. I love it. But, you know, back to what would you know what counted as important shit. You know, I think any situation that kind of creates stress when I was first living independently, like managing money, understanding healthcare, getting a job, cooking, cleaning, all of those things were important details that I didn't know a lot about. And all of those things were the things that made it into the book. And sadly enough, none of those topics are particularly exciting to sit down and talk to your kids about. Like, you know, hey Timmy, we're gonna sit down and talk about 401ks today. You know, like probably doesn't want to hear about it, but I think it's important that he does hear about it. You know, it's important to teach about money, about investing, things like that. You know, you have these seemingly mundane conversations with your kids, but you're giving them knowledge and power and experience of knowing these things.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Which is important.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I I've told a lot of parents that have been interested in the book that it's almost best for them to go through the book with their child, because you know, telling your child to read this book, like they're gonna be like, eh, I don't need that. I don't want to read that. And I know that because that's how my son reacted. And, you know, I finally went through it with him and he was like, Oh, well, I didn't know all this. I was like, I know you didn't know all this, that's why I wrote it down. But if you go through it with them, you know, chapter by chapter, subject by subject, and add in your own experiences and your own knowledge on the subject, then your child gets a you know a more full rounded learning experience from it and probably has a lot more to take away from it. So, you know, for a lot of people I tell them use the book as a guide to guide you towards what you need to teach your child.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I like that. I like the idea of reading it together and adding in your own experiences.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Because everybody's experience is not mine, you know, everybody has their own experience and their child they know their child, you know, they know what their child needs to focus on more than I do. So kind of adding in those experiences, I think, makes it better so that the child can be as independent as possible.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Absolutely. And to to add another way to use the book, I can see some parents using the book as a tool to give to their child because their child won't read it with them or you know, or hear it from them. So it might be for you know, it might be the only way that certain kids can get that information.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Right, because my my son was having a hard time listening to me talking about it, but when I wrote it down and he read it, he was like, Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks, mom.

unknown 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

So it it's just it's all about how you approach it with your own child, and each child is going to be different, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah. So what organization advice works well for neurotypical people, but completely falls apart for many neurodivergent adults?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

I I think the biggest one is just use a planner. But, you know, as we all know, especially those of us with ADHD, a planner only works if you remember to open it, you remember to check it every day, to update it, and actually have it with you. And that's a whole series of executive function tasks in and of itself. For a lot of neurodiverse adults, the issue isn't knowing what needs to be done, it's remembering to do it at the right moment and having a system that's visible enough to interrupt daily life and remember what you need to do. Instead of asking people to adapt to the system, I would encourage them to adapt their system to their brain. And maybe that's phone reminders, sticky notes on the bathroom mirror, maybe a shared family calendar, bills on auto pay. You know, being successful is going to come from building external supports, not relying on memory. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

And we live in an age where there's so much technology that can can help with things like that. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

So it's a good thing. I ask Suri all the time, you know, to remind me of things. They'll be like, hey, Suri, remind me at 10 o'clock tomorrow to make a hair appointment, you know, or something like that. And if I didn't have that reminder pop up, it would have been completely out of my head for weeks before I remembered to do it again.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah. And it's so easy to do those reminders. Yeah. It's just, you just have to say it out loud. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. So if a parent listening has a 15-year-old who struggles with organization, time management, self-care, independence, what's something that they should start doing tomorrow morning?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

That is a great question. And I just want to point out that first and foremost, remember that, you know, organization, time management, self-care, and independence are all four separate things. And if you try to tackle four separate things at a time, your child is going to get lost, or at least minded. I found that I had to pick one thing at a time, make that one thing better, make it easier, find adaptations, find solutions, accommodations that made it work for him, and then start with another one. So, for example, tomorrow morning, look for the most the you know, the task that causes the most difficulty. Maybe it's remembering to take their meds or getting out the door on time. Maybe it's keeping track of school assignments, and then ask, have a c have a conversation with them. You know, how can we make this require less memory and less effort? And, you know, maybe it's putting the pillbox on the kitchen table where they eat breakfast so they don't forget to take their meds. Maybe it's setting an alarm 10 minutes before they need to leave instead of right at time to leave, so they still have a few more minutes to gather their things. You know, if if they're having difficulty with their schoolwork, I always labeled my son's binder, the very front pocket, said homework only. And so that was the only thing that was allowed to go in that front pocket so that when when it was time to turn in his homework, he could find it. Otherwise, it would end up crumpled up in the bottom of his backpack, never to be seen again. You know, the goal here isn't to make your teen try harder, it's to make success easier, trying to make all of these tasks that are difficult for them easier. And I think one big mistake that parents a lot, you know, make a lot is thinking that independence comes from removing support. You know, if I step back, you know, my child's gonna figure it out. But in reality, independence comes from creating the right supports first. So helping them put those supports in place and then maybe step back a little bit. You know, we don't expect somebody to navigate across the country without GPS. We shouldn't expect young adults to navigate executive function challenges without tools either.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Right. I love that analogy. And from the work that I've done with Fanlings, is that once you fix that really hard thing, the other things become much, much, much easier to tackle. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yes, because you you you build a trust with your child that way. And they're like, okay, you know, they're really trying to help me, they're really trying to make things better. You know, I'm gonna open up more and tell them why this is really holding me back. And that's when you start finding real solutions, is when everybody starts getting very honest.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Well, so what adult skills do you wish parents started teaching years earlier?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Oh, so many, so many. Honestly, I I wish we started teaching adult skills long before we actually needed them. I wish they were taught in schools. Like I said earlier, you know, we spend years teaching algebra, but you know, young adults graduate without knowing how to make a doctor's appointment or read a paycheck or create a budget, it just isn't taught in schools, so it falls on the parents to teach these life skills. And that's what I meant when I said, you know, go through the book and teach these life skills because you're the only one that's going to do it, or they're gonna have to figure it out on their own and probably have some failures. If I had to pick a few skills to start earlier, the biggest ones I think are you know taking care of your mental and physical health. That's why they're the first two chapters in the book. Because if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. I mean, especially mental health for neurodivergent population, because a lot of us have multiple conditions, you know, like I have ADHD and tremendous anxiety, and that anxiety can weigh on me, and anxiety lies to me all the time, and trying to figure out ways to calm that and keep my mental health good is a top priority to me. Another one is managing money and just understanding where it goes. I had no idea how to create a budget when I graduated from college. I just kind of figured it out, but I wish somebody would have taught me earlier and I would have saved a lot of money that way. One other thing that I think is huge is, you know, that nobody talked about to me ever until like my mid-30s. I started figuring this out was investing. You know, I had started a 401k when I first started working right out of pharmacy school, but I really didn't even know what that meant. I was just told I should do that. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. But I didn't, I didn't understand what it meant until years and years later. I certainly didn't know what a Roth IRA or mutual funds or any of that was. And I think it would have been important to know as a at a much younger age. Another big thing, I think making appointments and communicating with medical professionals. I s I think I suggested in the book kind of body double with your child to an appointment. You know, go with them, but kind of stay silent unless they need you. You know, let them be in charge of the appointment and ask all the questions and things like that and try to build some independence so that when they go the next time they feel more confident. I also think it's helpful to know how to cook a small handful of simple meals. You know, my mom was a wonderful, wonderful cook, but she didn't like anybody in the kitchen with her. And so I never really learned. And when I first got out on my own, I made a lot of undercooked chicken before I learned how to do it properly. And I think, you know, just understanding basic health care and medications. You know, again, I'm a pharmacist and I feel like people should be educated on their medications instead of just, you know, taking them blindly because the doctor wrote a prescription for them. I think it's important for young people to look up their meds, understand the side effects and possible drug interactions. And if they have questions, to please, please, please ask your pharmacist, ask your doctor. That is literally our job. And building on that, the biggest thing I wish I was taught earlier was to ask for help. I think so many times we are embarrassed to ask questions because it's stuff that we're supposed to know already, and we end up making mistakes because we're too embarrassed to ask.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Wow, that's those are all very important. And to your point about sharing side effects, during my conversations with a college student with ADHD, she was on the wrong ADHD medicine for years because she didn't know that that side effect was something that we shouldn't have to deal with. Right? So speaking up is so that happens frequently. Yeah. Well, parents, thank you for joining us for today's conversation with Hannah. One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is that many of the skills that we associate with adulthood aren't character traits, they're learned skills. And when executive functioning, sensory needs, anxiety or burnout enter the picture, those school those skills often require different supports, different systems, and a lot more compassion. So if you'd like to learn more about Hannah and her work, you'll find links to the her book and the show notes. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with another parent, educator, or professional who supports uniquely wired children and teens. And maybe the goal isn't teaching kids to fly perfectly before they leave the nest. Maybe it's helping them build the wings they need along the way.